Other Knol Debates
Renewable Energy Debate - Summation
Let’s review the debate so far.
In the course of his rebuttal, Joe has rightly abandoned several of his initial arguments for renewable energy subsidies. To wit, he has dropped his contention that oil imports make us poorer; dropped his argument that subsidies are necessary to overcome embedded infrastructural advantages held by incumbent fossil fuel industries; and dropped his claim that renewable energy creates jobs and/or is, by definition, good for the macroeconomy. That’s all to the good – those are bad arguments. Since Joe has offered no defense of those arguments when pressed, we will likewise spend no further time on them.
Three areas of disagreement remain. Our summation will explore those disagreements.
First, Joe continues to argue that climate change is an urgent threat that demands immediate policy action. Fine – as we noted both in our initial statement and our subsequent rebuttal, we are not persuaded by that argument but we accept Joe’s claim for the sake of this discussion.
We argue instead that it is unclear whether renewable energy subsidies or mandates are the best means of reducing greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere – “best” defined as that which reduces greenhouse gas concentrations below a threshold of concern at the lowest possible cost. Many other remedies are conceivable (nuclear, carbon sequestration, energy efficiency investments, and geo-engineering to name just a few) but all involve a cost.
Our contention is that establishing an emissions tax or a carbon trading regime would achieve exactly what Joe wants to achieve but would allow market actors the opportunity to discover the lowest-cost means of reducing concentrations. Those who believe that renewables are in fact the least-costly way of achieving this end ought to be forced to prove their point in the marketplace. If they are correct, then renewables we shall have. Direct subsidies and construction orders are simply unnecessary.
Unfortunately, Joe refuses to wrestle with this argument at all beyond the claim that it will take too long to internalize price correctly. Why? An emissions trading regime passed in February will produce accurate prices within a year. Hence, until we hear some story about why market actors will under-invest in renewables even if energy prices are “corrected” by an emissions trading regime (even one ambitious enough to satisfy Joe), we have no counter-argument to contend with. In short, those who are panicked about climate change should embrace cap & trade programs, not targeted renewable energy subsidies or consumption mandates.
Second, Joe’s refuses to give up the ghost regarding oil depletion. We have offered two arguments for him to do so.
Our first argument is that, if oil is becoming scarcer in any meaningful sense, we ought to see oil prices going up. But alas, we note that a rigorous statistical analysis of oil prices finds no statistically significant trend in that direction and hence, no concrete evidence for the proposition that oil is becoming more scarce at present. Joe ignores the point but implies disagreement. Does this mean that Joe believes that oil can become more scarce without prices going up? We hope not.
Instead of directly wrestling with the lack of hard evidence for increased scarcity, Joe notes that many oil analysts – and even some oil companies! – think that oil depletion is on the horizon. Well, that’s true enough, but such opinions are clearly not uniformly held by all oil analysts or all oil companies. If anything, they are minority perspectives within those two communities. Regardless, whose opinions are correct? Who knows? As was well-documented in Vaclav Smil’s magisterial Energy at the Crossroads (MIT Press, 2003), forecasts from even the best authorities regarding future energy prices and market share have been grossly off-base since the beginning of time. Citing from authority on these matters (beyond being a logical fallacy) is insufficient because there are no authorities with reasonably decent track records to cite.
Our second argument is that future oil scarcity (if it occurs) will translate into oil price increases which will lead the market away from oil without government having to subsidize anyone to do anything. Joe doesn’t buy this for two reasons.
First, he claims that consumers don’t respond robustly to oil price increases. In the short term, that is correct. In the long term, it is not. Consumers don’t respond immediately (very much) because the cost of adjusting to high gasoline prices – selling your house to move closer to work, putting-up with neighbors in car pool arrangements, spending more time in commute via mass transit, and junking the gas guzzler with a lot of life still left in it for a more fuel efficient car – is costly. But eventually, respond they do … as Detroit is finding out with the collapse of the SUV, pickup, and minivan markets and as OPEC is finding out with the decline in world crude oil consumption … a decline, by the way, that began before the financial crisis hit this Fall.
Second, Joe claims that there is no market alternative to oil in the transportation sector. Really? If that’s the case, then renewables are no answer to oil depletion and government subsidies won’t change that. We suspect, however, that oil’s grip on the transportation market is more tenuous than it seems. If the champions of plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) are correct, those vehicles will prove economically attractive to consumers as long as oil prices average $55 or more per barrel over the lifetime of the PHEV. Hence, electricity can indeed compete with oil if scarcity drives prices upwards in the future. Given the fact that electricity could be generated from renewable energy, nuclear energy, natural gas, coal, or other fuels, the advent of lithium ion batteries suggests that transportation fuel markets are about to become a lot more competitive in the future.
The final issue of disagreement that remains is the question of market failure. We have argued that government intervention to promote renewable energy only makes sense if market prices for energy are “wrong.” We follow with the contention that, if prices are found to be wrong for some reason (say, by not including the cost of the environmental damages associated with energy consumption), the best and most appropriate remedy is to correct the price and then leave markets alone. Joe responds by arguing that this is hard-line libertarian ideology disconnected from observable reality and that government can indeed make better decisions about what to invest in than can market actors left to their own devices … even when market prices are “correct.”
This, we believe, is the real nub of the disagreement between us and Joe. More accurately, this is the real nub of the disagreement between economists and Joe. Our contention that market actors, as a general matter, outperform government planners and that government cannot improve on market performance unless it is correcting an identifiable market failure is not a matter of hard-line libertarian ideology. It is a matter of broad agreement among economists everywhere. Even Nobel laureate and liberal economist par excellance Paul Krugman would not disagree. Hence, Joe is declaring intellectual war on an entire academic discipline – economics – not on libertarianism (which is, in fact, about other things).
Now, some would argue that economists are little more than priests and that economic theory is akin to theological dogma (that is, unproven and unprovable – a sentiment lurking in many of the comments posted to this debate). Joe, thankfully, does not explicitly traffic in this sort of know-nothingism. Others (like, perhaps, Paul Krugman) would apply a more elastic definition of “market failure” than we might and thus find more plausible avenues for government intervention to improve on market performance. Joe doesn’t do that either. Instead, Joe (explicitly!) argues the socialist conceit that both producers and consumers are simply too dumb or too short-sited to recognize the economic merits (or demerits in the case of financial markets) of certain investments and that government planners should thus correct for this dismaying situation by dictating capital flows.
If prices were correct for energy, why would market actors disappoint in energy markets relative to Joe (or some collection of Joes)? Does Joe have information about renewable energy that others are not privy to? Almost certainly not. Is Joe quantitatively smarter than the intelligence manifested by “the wisdom of [market] crowds?” Probably not (although we admit to having conducted no IQ test on the matter). Does Joe have better incentives than market actors to discover information that might lead to economically optimal investments? Again, no.
What Joes does have is evidence that market actors sometimes collectively get things wrong. They overinvested in technology stocks, for instance, in the late 1990s. They overinvested in housing in this decade. They took on derivative contracts without accurately assessing the risks associated with the same. All true.
But does Joe have evidence that government can reliably invest in a less error-prone fashion? No. The fact that planned economies around the world have historically ended in smoldering ruin attests to the general superiority of markets. The manifest failure of government regulators to identify market errors and correct the same is likewise a testament to the observation that government is no better informed than the market when it comes to these things. For instance, it was investors – not regulators – who finally detected the rot behind Enron’s books and took that company down. It was the market – not the fiscal or monetary regulators – that finally grew impatient with returns from the technology sector and reallocated capital elsewhere. And it was the investor class – not government sanctioned credit reporting agencies like Moody’s – that finally woke up to the risks associated with sub-prime mortgages – risks that were oblivious to quasi-governmental institutions like Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae and to the balance of the Clinton and Bush regulatory brain trusts.
But let’s move from generalities about government decisions in the marketplace as a whole to government decisions in the energy marketplace in particular. What is the track record of government when it comes to overriding market outcomes in the energy sector? Pretty bad.
- In the 1950s, the interventionists argued that, with a bit of government help, nuclear power would prove “too cheap to meter.” A half a century later, however, we find that nuclear power is “too costly to matter” – even with a stunning array of subsidy, it is still more expensive than conventional electricity.
- Ever since World War II, Washington has periodically promised that synthetic oil was on the horizon and that government could and should deliver what the market mysteriously would not. Again, a half century later, we’re still confronting claims that yet one more government stab at the synthetic energy wagon will produce affordable energy despite at least four separate mad crash programs coming to naught in the past.
- In the 1970s, government preferences for solar energy were sold as a means of delivering us unto a low-cost solar energy economy. Now, solar has a trivial market share and has been all but forgotten in our rush to wind power despite a repeat of the same promises.
- People like Joe were once head-over-heals in love with corn ethanol and attested to the need to move heaven-and-earth to deliver that fuel to the market. Today, the evidence has mounted that corn ethanol will never be economically competitive with oil, cannot displace oil in any significant manner, and is almost certainly a worse conventional air and greenhouse gas pollutant than even gasoline.
- Over the past two decades, government has launch a dizzying array of frenetic programs to reinvent the car: first, to produce cars run largely upon battery electric power (California’s Zero Emission Vehicle program); then, to produce an auto fleet powered by conventional internal combustion engines that could get 70 or more miles per gallon (Clinton’s “Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles); then, to produce an auto fleet run on hydrogen powered fuel cells (Bush’s “Freedom Car” initiative); then, to produce an auto fleet powered by cellulosic ethanol (the so-called switch-grass initiative), and now, to produce an auto fleet made up of plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. Every year or two, either the Congress or the President can be reliably expected to come up with some bright new idea to redesign the car and launch a program to translate new wish into new reality. We’re sure more fads will come even while acknowledging that pure chance may eventually prove one of these investment frenzies to be worthwhile.
- During the 1990s, state legislatures thought they knew best how to structure electricity markets. The result were game-able systems in California and elsewhere that bear no resemblance to the sort of market that might have arisen had government not dictated politically favored industry blueprints to power companies.
The above list could go on and on, but we must leave a comprehensive exegesis of government energy failure for another day. Suffice it to say that the observation that markets are not always right about what constitutes a “good” investment is correct but insufficient. One must also find that governments can be reliably expected to do better. And there is no evidence in theory or practice that this is the case … particularly in energy markets.
While libertarians are often caricatured as those who have near religious certainty about the correctness of their ideologically-charged view of the world, the reality is quite the opposite. In short, we libertarians argue that, in energy markets, much is uncertain. We don’t know whether renewable energy is the “best” way to reduce greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere. We don’t know for certain when (or even if) oil will meaningfully grow more scarce. We don’t know what the transportation market will look like tomorrow. And we don’t know better than greedy, profit-hungry investors whether money spent in this sector or that – or on this technology or that – is a better deal than money spent in some other way. Hence, we propose to leave it to producers and consumers to sort such things out. Nor are we libertarians the only ones who see wisdom in this policy path. Even “soft energy” guru Amory Lovins has no complaint with leaving energy decisions to the market and letting the chips fall where they may.
Opposing Debate
Rebuttal
Let’s consider Joe’s arguments for government promotion of “clean” energy one at a time and then return to our central proposition.
Argument #1 – We must subsidize clean energy in order to stop global warming. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that global warming is a serious problem and that reducing emissions is cheaper than adapting to climate changes. Neither argument is persuasive to us (economist Richard Tol’s aforementioned survey of the literature suggests that climate damages will be extremely modest in economic terms and the Stern Review and the latest IPCC report provides strong evidence that adaptation is a cheaper and better response than mitigation), but rather than get bogged down in those arguments, let’s accept them for the sake of this discussion.
There are many ways to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Substituting wind and solar energy for coal or natural gas is one way. Substituting nuclear energy for the same is another. Sequestering carbon emissions from fossil fuel plants is another possibility. Using conventional energy sources at much reduced volumes – via energy efficiency and conservation – is yet another possibility. Beyond that, removing greenhouse gases from the atmosphere by expanding forests and other carbon sinks is a possible alternative to mitigation, as are geo-engineering possibilities that rely upon more direct human intervention in the atmosphere.
What is the most cost-effective way to do what Joe proposes – that is, to stop global warming (or, more accurately, to reduce future warming)? Who knows? Government subsidies and/or regulatory preferences to produce “clean energy” (at least, as defined by Joe – nuclear energy seems pretty clean to us but probably isn’t what Joe is talking about) simply rigs the market to favor one approach over alternative approaches. Better to internalize the costs of climate change into the price of energy and let market actors figure out how best to reduce emissions. Since government has no comparative advantage in figuring out the most efficient way to go about this, government has no brief for dictating answers to the market.
Argument #2 – We must subsidize clean energy because we’re running out of oil. It’s not altogether obvious to us that oil is becoming scarcer. A recently published analysis by economist James Hamilton closely examines quarterly crude oil prices from 1970 through 2008 and finds no clear scarcity signal in the price data at all. Regardless, if and when oil begins to disappear – or more accurately, if and when market actors believe the oil scarcity is on the horizon – oil prices will go up accordingly and the market will adjust without any need for government assistance. So while “peak-oil” arguments come and go with the related booms and busts in oil markets, there is no need for a policy argument about oil depletion.
Argument #3 – We must subsidize clean energy to stop a wealth transfer between the U.S. and hostile oil producers. This is akin to arguing that I should start growing crops, produce, and husbanding livestock in my back yard to put an end to the wealth losses I’m incurring by spending thousands of dollars a year on food. We buy foreign oil for a reason; it’s cheaper than getting it from domestic sources. If the oil were not more valuable than the paper we exchange for it, we wouldn’t buy oil in the first place.
Regardless, Joe’s argument that most of the people we ship our oil currency to do not share our values is curious. The most common destination of our oil dollars is Texas and Alaska. The next most common destination is Canada. Saudi Arabia comes next, of course, but it is closely followed by Mexico. Regardless, if we were only to engage in trade with people who “share our values” – particularly if Joe is defining the term – we wouldn’t buy and sell goods and services outside of blue-state or red-state America (depending upon your political point of view). The world would be a very poor place. Until Boston or San Francisco gets into the oil business, I suspect that Joe will always be sending his energy dollars to a lot of people who don’t share his values regardless of whether we follow his policy advice or not.
Argument #4 – We must subsidize clean energy to level the playing competitive field. This is the eternal cry of a child who demands favors because Mom always liked Johnny (or Mary) best! And the cries are never-ending. For instance, you’ll find the exact same complaint forwarded by William Tucker elsewhere on the web at the moment, who is currently engaged in a very similar debate with one of us (Jerry) in a debate about nuclear power. Bill, like Joe, claims that his favorite energy source has been short-changed by government and that it’s time to make things right.
Without getting bogged down into a long and detailed exegesis about what constitutes a subsidy and how different subsidies affect the market in different ways, the correct answer to complaint is that, whatever its merits, the best remedy for a counterproductive subsidy is to eliminate the subsidy in question. Providing compensatory subsidies distorts the market further because investment decisions are not made strictly between, say, “clean energy” and “unclean energy.” Any subsidy that affects market prices (and, hence, profit opportunities) advantages the subsidized and comparatively disadvantages all other potential investment vehicles. Hence, subsidizing “clean energy” investments may re-direct capital that might otherwise have gone into coal, but it might also draw away investments that might otherwise have been made in life-saving pharmaceuticals, automobile safety, genetic engineering, manufacturing, or a whole host of things.
By the way, even Carl Pope, the head of the Sierra Club, agrees with us that eliminating offensive subsidies to energy sources Joe doesn’t like is a better policy in theory and practice than the subsidizing clean energy even more aggressively than is already the case.
Argument #5 – We must subsidize clean energy because existing energy sources are too well entrenched in the economy. This argument is closely related to the above, but it implies that, once a competitor has a “big lead” in the market – particularly if there is a lot of expensive infrastructure supporting the incumbent – that competitors cannot make market gains absent significant government support. This argument is demonstrably untrue in most sectors of the economy and untrue in the energy sector as well. If so, for instance, how can we explain the success of the Prius, which uses battery technology despite the fact that the auto industry has relied almost exclusively on the internal combustion engine for over a century? If investments in wind, solar, biofuels, energy efficiency, lithium-ion batteries, or whatever are economically attractive – that is, if they offer the hope of profit – then those investments will be made regardless of government preferences for those investments and regardless of the sunk costs of competitors.
Argument #6 – We must subsidize clean energy to create jobs. Subsidies to create jobs in renewable energy simply take funds from people and businesses that would have spent them on other goods. Job gains in the renewable energy sector will thus be offset by job losses in the industries that produce those other goods. The contention that renewable energy is more labor-intensive than alternatives may or may not be true, but even if it is, that’s not a good argument for subsidy because creating jobs does not necessarily equal creating wealth. For instance, we could create millions of new jobs by banning food imports and farm machinery. The economy, however, would not be helped by such policies and wealth losses would be dramatic. The point here is that wealth is created by putting labor, capital, and raw materials to their most efficient (profitable) use. Subsidies in this case will re-direct investment flows from more profitable to less profitable activities and thus will impoverish the economy … no matter what one happens to believe about net job creation.
While we’re in the neighborhood, let’s also answer Michael Cushman’s argument in response to our initial essay. His argument boils down to the claim that governmental actors are more far-sighted – and/or are more willing to take the “long run” into consideration – than are market actors. Joe is right to eschew this argument (or, at the very least, to forget to make it). There are two fundamental problems.
First, governmental decisions are ultimately made not by experts, but by politicians, and politicians – being in the vote-getting business – will reflect the time horizons and economic preferences of swing voters. Hence, while discounting may well lead market actors to pay little attention to profits that might be available from 50-year investment plans, government is even less likely to efficiently plan for the long-haul because swing voters don’t reword politicians for doing so. On the contrary, voters reward politicians who transfer wealth from the future to the present whether by deficit spending, promising lavish retirement benefits that can’t be sustained by future generations, or what have you. Accordingly, politicians always have and always will rob the future by transferring tomorrow’s wealth to the present to the extent that they are able to do so.
Second, public actors have no better information at their disposal than do private actors. Hence, there’s no reason to believe that government “knows better” than investors about what to invest in. Moreover, market actors make decisions based on a cold assessment of potential profit and loss. That is, decisions are made by economic analysis (which may prove, of course, good or bad). Politicians, on the other hand, make decisions based on a cold assessment of potential votes gained or lost. Only by random chance will investments with political merit also have economic merit and visa versa (an observation played out in spades recently before our eyes in the ethanol debate). The upshot is that market incentives are more likely to produce good economic outcomes than political incentives.
We return then to our original argument. To wit, we know that, as a general matter, free markets work better than socialism. We know that market allocation of goods and services leads to better economic outcomes than political allocation of the same. Only if there is a market failure – that is, only if there is something peculiar about energy markets that makes prices “wrong” – is there intellectual room for the argument that government intervention will improve efficiency. We are still waiting for that argument from Joe.
The Case against Government Support for Alternative Energy
by Jerry Taylor and Peter Van Doren
Opposing Argument
[1] John Nye, “The Pigou Problem,” Regulation 31:2, Cato Institute, Summer 2008, pp. 32-37/.
[2] Thomas Sundqvist and Patrik Soderholm, “Valuing the Environmental Impacts of Electricity Generation: A Critical Survey,” The Journal of Energy Literature 8:2, Oxford Institute for Energy Studies, December 2002, pp. 3-41.
[3] W. Kip Viscusi, Wesley Magat, Alan Carlin, and Mark Dreyfus, “Environmentally Responsible Energy Pricing,” The Energy Journal 15:2, Summer 1994, pp. 23-42.
[4] Richard Tol, “The Marginal Damage Costs of Carbon Dioxide Emissions: An Assessment of the Uncertainties,” Energy Policy 33, 2005, pp. 2064-2074.
[5] Davis Weisbach and Cass Sunstein, “Climate Change and Discounting the Future: A Guide for the Perplexed,” Working Paper 08-19, AEI Center for Regulatory and Market Studies, August 2008.
[6] The best single academic treatment of this issue is Douglas Bohi and Michael Toman, The Economics of Energy Security (Boston: Kluwer Academic Publishers, 1996).
[7] The Iranian data can be found in the CIA World Factbook under the Economy subheading for Iran https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html. The U.S. data can be found in the National Income and Product Accounts Table 2.5.5 line 75 (gasoline and oil expenditures) and table 2.1 line 26 (disposable personal income) http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/SelectTable.asp?Selected=N



Roger
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10/15/09 continued
It is a distinct peculiarity of the energy market that in 2007 well over 300 billion dollars was exported from the U.S. economy to purchase foreign oil. How does it happen that the government’s solution to the financial crisis required the injection of a similar amount of tax dollars to save the financial system? Is there a good argument to prove that the initial loss of that money to the economy did not contribute significantly to bursting the real estate bubble, in turn pulling down reckless banks in 2008? What is the proof of the statement that, “We buy foreign oil for a reason; it’s cheaper than getting it from domestic sources”? If T&V make no attempt to calculate subsidy for the conventional oil industry, how do they know what the cost is?
I want to hear a successful argument that libertarian fundamentals can be used affirmatively to end “rigging energy markets” regardless of what form of production may be favored.
Roger
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Untitled
In all humility, I like to think of my own situation as a good example of free market implementation of a rational, renewable, and clean energy policy. For the last twenty-six years, a hydroelectric power plant built by my company has been producing power--enough to serve approximately 500 people. During that period, the government hampered its development and operation, and continues to hamper similar efforts across a broad spectrum. While I understand that T&V have blasted past government energy policy as “hundreds of pages of corporate welfare, symbolic gestures, empty promises, and pork-barrel projects,” frankly, I am not convinced they understand the practical implications.
Energy development is a very complex matter, but the first issue is always simple--How do you get paid? If the answer to that question were straightforward, developers would not be asking for subsidies. I feel--and it is admittedly only an educated feeling--that over a quarter of a century, my power has been sold for somewhere between 75 and 50 percent of what conventional plants actually cost. In other words, I have been subsidizing the consumption of electricity for the American public.
The T&V discussion needs to set aside the general and emotional issues to concentrate on the details of the actual market. What about the requirement to pay the “avoided cost” for renewable power produced by small power producers under the Public Regulatory Policy Act of 1978? Did that not establish that government policy, if utilized, was to pay an amount equal to the cost of conventional plants? T&V should point out that that method of cost determination for new power sales contracts was rendered defunct by rule change at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission in 2007. Presently, if they compare the “price to purchase electricity” listed on most electric bills to the price paid to small power producers, they will find the latter is substantially lower. Why?
We have not even started to talk about subsidy, and yet, T&V seem to be unaware that renewable energy plants are forced to make their way with a lower price than the utilities say they are paying. To claim this is not happening is false. I say, the two-tiered pricing system implies that pricing is “wrong,” to use T&V terminology. Spot pricing appears to be disproportionate to actual stated cost. This is probably because of sweetheart, long-term contracts. However, reasonable long-term contracts have been virtually unavailable to most developers for almost twenty years. If pricing is wrong, T&V say something should be done to correct the price. What?
First, to validate their approach, T&V must establish that the energy marketplace is working well enough in actual practice--not theory--to enable the renewable producers to have access to a price that is equal to the price available for coal, oil, nuclear, and gas. Over the past thirty years, there has been vast proof to the contrary.
Next, T&V’s tacit admission that there is, at least, some subsidy of conventional plants, renders their arguments for free market pricing bogus if they do not make some attempt to calculate the subsidy and, thus, put its effect in perspective. Will T&V accept that the vast majority of alternative producers get no subsidy at present? Any small power producer will assure them that such an assumption is appropriate. Conversely, will they deny as a matter of fact that the conventional sources are without subsidy? They admit that development of nuclear is “conceivable,” but seem vague on the reality that 104 plants have been producing almost 20% of U.S. electricity, for some time. They cannot seriously claim there is no subsidy for nuclear. Logically, it follows for them to make some calculation of the effects on the market price of the subsidy.
T&V say...(continued)
Emma
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To Heck With Them All
This site show you hw step by step: http://howtobuildyou
Tim
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Rrrrright
Give greentechs the equivalent (inflation adjusted?) amounts that gas/coal/fossils have received EVER and stop all fossil subsidies now and let's see what happens.
tm
Rod Richardson
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Can we compromise? How about tax cutting our way to a greener future?
Try this on for size: total tax freedom for all green energy sources, infrastructure and vehicles. Zero sales, income, or capital gains tax on stocks and dividends, in proportion to the percentage of a company's revenue that comes from green energy sources.
Now, seeing as it is closing in on 2:00 AM, I'm not going to make all possible arguments about this right now. Anyone interested can read more at http://www.GreenEner
But I will say this. Total tax freedom is utterly unlike any incentive that has been discussed in this debate so far. Even tax credits allow unprofitable companies to seem profitable. Tax freedom, however, cannot make the unprofitable profitable, so only real solutions will survive. And, if broadly applied, tax freedom will allow the market, not the government, to pick the specific winners.
There can be no doubt that tax freedom for green energy will supercharge investment in this vital area of entrepreneurship well beyond anything Joe or the President-elect has proposed, creating millions of new jobs. Obama's proposed $150 billion direct investment over ten years simply cannot compete with what the private sector can do if unleashed and properly motivated with low-or-no taxes. ExxonMobil itself will shift green in order to become tax free. And, by the way, this proposal would swiftly bring massive new debt and equity investment to the green-shifting auto industry, obviating the need for bailout, bankruptcy or socialist takeover.
Why Joe should love this is obvious. It is massively more effective than the incentives he has proposed, and does not cost a dime of federal spending upfront.
Why Jerry and Peter should love this goes to the heart of what Cato is about. Milton Friedman once said "I am in favor of cutting taxes under any circumstances and for any excuse, for any reason, whenever it's possible." There are plenty of other arguments I could make about putting downward pressure on energy prices, etc. But this one is the clincher: it is a TAX CUT. As such, the net benefit to the economy from cutting taxes will be positive. Forget global warming, forget foreign oil dependency. Cutting taxes is a good thing to do, at all times, for whatever reason.
As such, it is different from incentives that rely on mandates, federal spending or "federal investment," tax credits, bold new initiatives to pick this or that particular winner. All of those have negative blow-back, none have the benefits of a broad tax cut.
One last thing. As a Cato donor for decades, I can't begin to express my dismay that you would extol the virtues of a carbon tax (or any tax hike). Or the unenforceable boondoggle that is cap-and-trade, a carbon tax by another name. Our economy is reeling from the 500% oil price rise of the last two years -- which may likely return if the economy attempts recovery -- and you want to make oil cost more? Do you want to bring on a depression?
But at least I am glad that you like the principle behind the carbon tax, which is that the best thing to do, if anything, is to adjust any price discrepancy between fossil fuels and clean energy. Because a green energy tax cut really amounts to the double negative of a carbon tax: it is a no-carbon tax cut. Same principle, superior result. Why? Tax cut.
Think tanks like Cato need to wrap their head around the notion that green energy incentives are coming, like it or not. Many of those incentives could do some real damage. Cato and it friends should champion the one incentive that won't do that kind of harm and that will actually do a great deal of good: a green energy tax cut.
Artur Landerzon Barrera Garcia
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In Spanish
dwarg
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Missing the Point
"The fact is both sides of this debate have very valid issues that they raise but the problem is they are TALKING AT each other and not LISTENING TO each other. I'll provide examples of this in another post."
So we'll take the responses in the parent article for an example.
"Argument #1 – We must subsidize clean energy in order to stop global warming.
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that global warming is a serious problem and that reducing emissions is cheaper than adapting to climate changes... There are many ways to reduce greenhouse gas emissions... What is the most cost-effective way to do what Joe proposes..."
Obviously there was no point in responding to this first point since Joe didn't provide a case for how the subsidies would stop global warming. Also, the unwillingness of the free-marketeers to acknowledge global warming in the first place is going to make this a sticking point.
"Argument #2 – We must subsidize clean energy because we’re running out of oil.
It’s not altogether obvious to us that oil is becoming scarcer...
This has to be the dumbest response possible. If oil is a finite resource, and we are burning it, there is no logical way you can say it isn't becoming scarcer. You can dance around HOW scarce all you want. The question is should we be planning ahead or shouldn't we? Do we want all our eggs in one basket or would we like to have some alternatives to hedge against market fluctuations and the eventual depletion of oil? The answer seems pretty obvious to me.
"Argument #3 – We must subsidize clean energy to stop a wealth transfer between the U.S. and hostile oil producers.
This is akin to arguing that I should start growing crops, produce, and husbanding livestock in my back yard to put an end to the wealth losses I’m incurring by spending thousands of dollars a year on food..."
It isn't akin to that at all. You're dodging the question by misrepresenting his argument and making yourself look like a fool in the process. The key word is "hostile" and you obviously ignored it because it is a valid point and you have no response to it. Since Alaska and Canada aren't hostile there's no reason to bring them into the discussion.
"Argument #5 – We must subsidize clean energy because existing energy sources are too well entrenched in the economy.
...This argument is demonstrably untrue in most sectors of the economy... If so, for instance, how can we explain the success of the Prius... If investments in wind, solar, biofuels... are economically attractive...then those investments will be made regardless of government preferences for those investments.
IF being the operative word here. Yes IF they are economically attractive the investment will be made. But we're not looking at IF, we're looking at WHEN the investments don't look attractive because the cost of entry is too high to get industry to the other side where it can become profitable.
Also, the Prius argument is a complete non sequitur. It was the result of a little foresight by a car manufacturer, something our domestic manufacturers seem completely devoid of. But as it stands Prius technology required no infrastructure changes. The issue at hand is about infrastructure changes that may need to be made to assist in the creation of new industries.
"To wit, we know that, as a general matter, free markets work better than socialism... We know that market allocation of goods and services leads to better economic outcomes than political allocation of the same. Only if there is a market failure – that is, only if there is something peculiar about energy markets that makes prices “wrong” – is there intellectual room for the argument that government intervention will improve efficiency. We are still waiting for that argument from Joe."
Sorry to jump all over you in this response because you are absolutely correct that Joe failed to provide any compelling arguments. Largely, I believe, because he did a terrible job framing the debate. You're responses, however, only muddied the waters by further distorting the topic at hand. In that final paragraph you make it clear that you're talking about a completely different topic than Joe.
In the end that's where the problem lies. You're looking at the problem in strictly monetary terms with a sort-sighted view that problems take care of themselves. If you believe that's true, in all cases, your valid arguments about when subsidies are not effective are going to be ignored and overzealous spenders that can't wait to give away our tax dollars are going to dominate the conversation and continue to make expensive mistakes. If you show some willingness to compromise you and those of your political leaning might actually become helpful.
dwarg
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No MIddle Ground?
"What’s wrong with the Cato Institute’s thinking? It’s a religion dressed up as a think tank. Its god is capitalism and markets. Like all fundamentalists, they have a utopic vision."
Making some modifications I could make an equally biased and appealing argument to those of the opposite viewpoint:
What’s wrong with the [ Liberal Environmental Movement's ] thinking? It’s a religion dressed up as a think tank. Its god is [ government ] and [ welfare ]. Like all fundamentalists, they have a utopic vision.
From an extremist point of view both statements are true. The modern purpose of competitive debate is to pose one's argument in opposition to another with the purpose of proving it's superiority and thus garnering greater support for its acceptance and possible implementation. This is a horribly destructive means of determining policy because within this model there is no space given for compromise.
Ideally a debate would be between two open minded parties willing to listen to the ideas of the other for the purpose of gleaning any ideas of merit so that the best possible solution can be constructed.
Unfortunately, I can find no examples of this model being practiced publicly. Further this model couldn't even be applied to the debate at hand because it has been poorly constructed, or perhaps well constructed, to disallow any opportunity for consensus to take place.
No definition of what constitutes a subsidy has been provided. Thus making it a generality for one side to champion and the other vilify by any means they see fit.
The goals these subsidies are meant to accomplish are initially spelled out as; One, reduce our carbon footprint to stave off the potentially disastrous effects of global warming and two, reduce our dependence on foreign oil--specifically that oil purchased from hostile countries. Assuming we can agree on these problems the next logical step is to determine how these subsidies are going to accomplish these tasks. This is also never done.
So our "debate" is reduced to arguing over how an undefined subsidy is, or isn't, going to solve our problems when pumped into an undefined "green" solution.
The fact is both sides of this debate have very valid issues that they raise but the problem is they are TALKING AT each other and not LISTENING TO each other. I'll provide examples of this in another post.
For what it's worth, I think it's obvious the federal government is going to need to make some significant investments (I'm sure our friends at CATO like that word better than subsidies) to help green energy infrastructure get on equal footing with entrenched fossil fuel infrastructure. The wheres and hows and for how much need to be worked out but I know it CAN BE worked out if "we the people" can take away the profit motive behind partisanship.
I will attempt some examples of compromise solutions to this ill-defined topic.
One compromise would be to offer an X-Prize like bounty to the company that develops and demonstrates technology that solves a problem by meeting a certain threshold. Upon the meeting of that initial threshold a second higher bar should be created with further incentive for companies to exceed those parameters, thus fostering competition. These prizes should be drawn up to reward the solution to clearly defined problems without favoring one type of solution over another. Presidential candidate John McCain has already proposed something like this with battery technology but in it's current form it is ill defined.
Another example would be to publicly fund research into specific targeted solutions (not problems in this case as to be cost effective you need to keep research focused) patent them and then auction off those discoveries to interested companies. This investment has the potential to pay for itself or even be profitable. Certain caveats could be attached to the auction to prevent purchased patents from being buried to maintain the status quo.
These are just off the top of my head and I know smart people could come up with a lot more. We just need the political and social will to see it through.
Christo
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Reply to Micheal Crushman (reposted here)
You are not even forming a logical argument here. If you want to see China more competitive you should do that. The Chinese economy started to grow when free market reforms were started by Deng Xiaoping. FIY in 1988 Milton Friedman held a speech called “The Chinese Economic Reform” this was hand delivered to Deng Xiaoping. So these freemarket people that you want to send to China already helped the Chinese economy.
“What’s wrong with the Cato Institute’s thinking? It’s a religion dressed up as a think tank. Its god is capitalism and markets.”
This accusation of yours does not have any merit. Of course there are people that strongly believe in the free market (just as there are people who strongly believe in evolution, etc...). What you are saying is that this belief is rooted in neither science nor rational thought. This is clearly wrong – free market capitalism is accepted in mainstream economics and several people who held free-market views have won Nobel Memorial Prizes in Economics. This is then clearly not an irrational viewpoint?
“a nation competes within a world of nations. “
This is the neocon viewpoint: nations compete, therefore it is important that a nation protects its international “interests” (such as oil). Ludwig von Mises wrote an article that this mentality is one of the prime causes of war (Economic Causes of War, Ludwig von Mises (1944)).
“Businesses invest with time frames of 1 to 5 years. Nations invest with time frames of 10 to 50 years.”
This is completely wrong. “Nations” (I.e. ruling political parties) generally spend in a time frame of 4-5 years (depending on the length of the presidential term). I can give you numerous examples of businesses that invest in time frames greatly exceeding 5 years (a good example is forestry in which planning is done 15+ years before the the result is harvested (depending on the type of wood, it can be more than 15)).
“Energy, transportation, communication, knowledge, and innovation are the core engines of national success. Nations that fail to invest or invest unwisely decline in power. Smart investments can create competitive advantages that last for decades.”
What gives you reason to believe that the government will do “smart investments” better than free markets?
“In the 1960s, the USA invested in space exploration and created another national competitive advantage,”
A lot of investment is a waste. Your arguments suffers from the broken window fallacy: you neglect what would have happened with the money if the government did not use it. There are numerous examples of space exploration programs that was not worth the money that was spent on it (Shuttle Program, International Space Station).
“and it also spurred business investment in microprocessors, telecommunications, computers, materials, etc. “
Consumer demand spurred business into investing money into consumer products. Shockley created the first transistor at Bell Labs. He then later went on to form another company (Shockley Semiconductor Laboratory). Some researchers were not happy with SSL ignoring silicon so they went on to form Fairchild. The Industry was born.
How can you give the government credit for the microprocessor industry when in fact the market played by far the most dominant role?
The same goes for telecommunications (Shannon Information Theory, the basis for communication for example was developed at Bell) and all the other areas you mentioned.
“In Brazil, carburetors burn gasoline, ethanol, and methanol. That means fuel isn’t just something you extract from the ground, but something you can grow or make. With the open-fuel carburetor, any country can be in the fuel business. “
Barzil's ethanol for sugarcane is incredibly bad for the environment (fertilizers, etc.. See http://en.wikipedia.
“For years oil companies have bought exclusive rights and patents for alternative”
That is false. See for example BP Solar's research.
Dan.M
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Article summary
The CATO institute feels that any new regulation, subsidy, or tax is a bad idea.
Of course, that could summarize the CATO Institute position on any given issue. The argument goes like this, "If only the government would get out of the way 'the market' would solve any and all problems faced by human kind."
Like any argument founded in dogma it has only the faintest connection to reality. In reality, without governments "intervening" by creating regulations, taxing bad things, and subsidizing good things "free markets" wouldn't exist. Free markets consolidate, form monopolies/oligopoli
In other words the true meaning of the CATO-worshiped, "free market" is an imaginary place where externalities don't exist, monopolies don't abuse their power, all players have all the same information, and everyone is equipped to compete on all levels equally.
-Riskable
http://riskable.com
"It is a truism that almost any business or industry cartel will legislate more profit into law if it acquires the power to do so, and will follow it by attempting to keep influence over the politicians that passed it, attacking those against it, and attempting to improve upon the previous legislation with even more profitable laws."